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Hiatal Hernia Massage

Printed From: Barrett's Support Forum
Category: Barrett's Support Forum
Forum Name: Barrett's Oesophagus
Forum Discription: Your Questions about Barrett's Oesophagus
URL: http://www.barrettscampaign.org.uk/forum//forum_posts.asp?TID=1510
Printed Date: 18 Aug 2019 at 9:34pm


Topic: Hiatal Hernia Massage
Posted By: NickH
Subject: Hiatal Hernia Massage
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 2:11pm
Dear All

Does anyone have any info regarding massage to correct a hiatal hernia?

I've found some stuff on the internet but it's all American based practitioners. I've asked a handful of chiropractors in my area and they've all either seemed clueless about it or just say they don't carry out that type of treatment.

My logic tells me that alleviating the source of the acid in the first place (besides being on medication for the rest of my life) would seem the sensible thing to do. From what I've read, having an op brings its own hazards which is why I was interested to investigate the massage technique.

thanks

Nick



Replies:
Posted By: chrisrob
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 2:14pm
The massage technique works for some but the hiatus is obviously loose enough to permit reherniation.
I guess some chiropracters don't mind, it means they can continue retreating.
The only permanent way is to have the hernia repaired - which is done as part of a fundoplication operation.

-------------
http://www.barrettswessex.org.uk - www.barrettswessex.org.uk


Posted By: NickH
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 2:29pm
Thanks Chris, i see from other posts that you've had the op done so will read back over older posts to get your experience


Posted By: chrisrob
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 2:33pm
You can read my blog of my fundoplication on my personal website https://sites.google.com/site/robichris/barretts#TOC-The-Laparoscopic-Nissen-Fundoplication-operation - here.

It was the best thing I ever did. I still have my Barrett's but not the reflux nor need for medication.
As you will see, my wrap came loose - following 5 hours violent retching due to norovirus and I had it repaired by Collis-Nissen revision early in 2014 - and cycled over the Andes 6 months later.

-------------
http://www.barrettswessex.org.uk - www.barrettswessex.org.uk


Posted By: Pyrrhonist
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 4:51pm
es anyone have any info regarding massage to correct a hiatal hernia?

Yes. I read about this and saw a chiropractor. I think this manipulation is a myth! If the phrenoesophareal ligament is stretched - then it is stretched. Manipulation can do nothing!

However the chiropractor did notice that my diaphragm was tensed - presumably as a reaction to the lifelong discomfort I have had from occasional reflux. So she did spinal manipulation to relax it. I suspect that this is one of the changes I made that enable me to live comfortably with the reflux, without the severe upsetting of the hormonal system that results from taking PPIs.

I was on PPIs for nearly 4 years. They caused bile reflux - a known problem with PPIs, though few doctors will admit it!

I stopped taking PPIs in April 2012 and would not go back on them.


-------------
Richard Torrens. - See my www site for my own experiences with Barrett's and reflux etc.


Posted By: NickH
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 5:21pm
that was my concern, the massage option does sound too good to be true!

i've been on PPI's for about 10 years and luckily no side effects that i'm aware of. i know the pills do a great job in keeping the acid at bay but i just don't feel comfortable in being on medication long term.

how did you manage to find a chiropractor that could carry out the procedure you mentioned?



Posted By: jcombs99
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2015 at 11:54pm
N
   My friend is a retired Chiropractor who has a HH and Haloed his barretts. He said in a word " NO ' this came up like 3 years ago but if you want to try go ahead I'm always open to anything.
Fundo may work one day or 25 years try different drugs first like I have IF it's not working.

CHEERs

Jeff


Posted By: Pyrrhonist
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 12:56pm
> that was my concern, the massage option does sound too good to be
> true!

Probably quite correct! However the manipulation to relax the diaphragm may well be extremely useful.

> i've been on PPI's for about 10 years and luckily no side effects
> that i'm aware of. i know the pills do a great job in keeping the
> acid at bay but i just don't feel comfortable in being on
> medication long term.

I don't post here often as my opinions differ greatly from standard advice. The risks of long-term medication may be small - but they are there! If you can contro your reflux with lifestyle modification, that surely is the healthy option!

I found that PPIs caused me bile reflux (as a dose's effects wore off). Bile in the stomach is known to be very dangerous. It is also known that PPIs have a bad effect on the gall bladder and biliary system.

But PPIs are so useful in preventing acid reflux - it seems that no doctor wants to upset the apple cart by investigating their adverse effects.

The papers I have found convince me that my health is best preserved by not using medications that have such a major adverse effect on the digestive hormonal system. And possibly other organs, too.

> how did you manage to find a chiropractor that could carry out the
> procedure you mentioned?

Yes. She is a well though of professional, who clearly believes in what she does. However she was doubtful that manipulation would do anything! She has done many successful manipulations on babies.

However my niece is a doctor who has done paediatrics and now trains junior doctors: reflux in babies is common, she says, and almost invariably cures itself. So, she says, such manipulation is not useful and the chiropractor is fooling herself!

My father was a consultant surgeon and his advice was to stay away from people like himself! Once you get labelled as 'sick' you are part of the medical system. Good health is a state of mind! You can read my father's book on my www site. It's quite interesting as it predates modern medicine!

I am lucky, for though I have has lifetime reflux, it caused little discomfort so is easily managed with standard antacids.

I also believe that Barrett's oesophagus is no illness. Cats, dogs, pigs, rats etc.can develop it, so it's clearly nothing new in evolution. Obesity is nothing new either, though admittedly more common! Tight corsetting must have caused much reflux. So the human race has been living with reflux and Barrett's for eons. The only thing that has changed is the diagnosis, the medication with PPIs and the incidence of adenocarcinoma - which has mirrored the ue of PPIs!



-------------
Richard Torrens. - See my www site for my own experiences with Barrett's and reflux etc.


Posted By: jcombs99
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 2:10pm
P
    My Doctor told me the likely cause of Silent Reflux in adults is having lots of Reflux when a baby . To bad I can't ask my mother about that BUT I didn't feel anything after my last Halo . I think it burned some of the nerve ending away but better then barretts .


Posted By: NickH
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 4:42pm
i've not looked up possible long term side effects of taking PPI's, partly because the internet has the ability to scare the life out of you once you start digging and also because i feel i've got plenty to think about with the BE.

i have tried to be proactive instead of just waiting for my next endoscopy. When diagnosed the Doctor simply said no more caffeine and take medication for the rest of your life! i've had to do my own research as even the GP and consultants i've seen so far don't seem overly clued up on the situation, especially on how best to alter life style.

i've had conflicting advice when it comes to diet so i've used my own common sense and tried to listen to what my body is telling me. i've recently been trying to stick to a more alkaleine diet and i've definately noticed a difference.. i used to regularly get aching or pain in my upper stomach, especially when stressed at work. since modifying my diet this pain has virtually disappeared.

i agree that state of mind is important as well. initially i was quite stressed and worried when first diagnosed but as time goes on i've tried to educate myself more and am starting to accept that we may be the lucky ones. We get to monitor our condition as opposed to the many who aren't even aware of the problem, until for the few when it's too late.

this site has proved very helpful with lots of great info and advice from fellow suffers, so thank you to those that manage this site and those that contribute, very much appreciated.

i think i will still investigate the massage route, as you say, it may help to relax my diaphram. If it helps in any way then that's a good thing, plus it helps the mind stay positive when you feel you're actually doing something constructive.

what was the site of your father's book by the way?

thanks again for the response, it's all relevant stuff to me.

nick


Posted By: NickH
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by jcombs99

P
    My Doctor told me the likely cause of Silent Reflux in adults is having lots of Reflux when a baby . To bad I can't ask my mother about that BUT I didn't feel anything after my last Halo . I think it burned some of the nerve ending away but better then barretts .


hi

has the HALO treatment eradicated your BE? Also, what were the circumstances for getting the treatment, was it privately?

something that has crossed my mind is that apparently silent reflux could be going on without the sufferer being aware....presummably regular endoscopys would still be needed just in case?


Posted By: jcombs99
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 5:07pm
N
My HGD,LGD,Barretts is gone and my O is normal BUT mine will come back as in 4cm HH (need a refundo).Your doing a good job of research read Chris's book it's very good . My doctor's opinion which is mine 1 year scope on just barretts ,6 months on Lgd ,3 months on HGD ..He doesn't believe it will regress and LGD,HGD needs to be Haloed. He states by doing the scopes on just barretts @ 3 to 5 years there will be more cases of cancer which anyone with common sense would agree. It's all up to your ins or NHS what they will pay for.
What I did on the coffee (1cup),Booze with FOOD and common sense till you get this under control. I'm 60mg so I split it up I do ANYTHING to make them work for my life style

CHEERs


Posted By: chrisrob
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 5:10pm
In defence of PPIs - because they so often get a bad press.

PPIs are amongst the safest of drugs used by millions around the world for 25 years. But they must be used correctly and monitored by a doctor.
The advice is the lowest effective dose for the shortest requisite time.

For acid hyper-secretion alone or to permit the healing of a gastric ulcer, a course of two or three weeks may be sufficient. In America, they have been available over the counter for many years and been misused. Let's face it, how many of us read the small print on the instruction sheet inside a box of tablets?

When acid reflux sufferers have found their Tums insufficient, they may have thought the Nexium on the shelf that was being advertised on television may be better and take them in the same way as they did for their Tums. But PPIs are not instant acting antacids: they need to be taken pre-emptively at the same time each day (half an hour before breakfast is best).
Not finding them as good as they thought, some may have been tempted to increase the dose.
Research has shown that those most at risk of "side effects" are self-medicators. And why should they pay to see a doctor just because they hve found they need to keep taking them for longer than a few weeks?

"Side effects" of PPIs are mainly from induced hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) because they are too go at their job.
This means essential minerals aren't leeched in sufficient quantity from foodstuffs and low levels of iron, magnesium, calcium etc are absorbed. This can result in anaemia and osteoporosis etc. Stomach acid also helps kill off bad bacteria so PPIs get blamed for infections like C-Difficile.
In order to counteract the over-usage in America, the FDA had to issue warnings about using PPIs thus propagating the fears that the drugs are harmful.
Add to that other scare stories occasioned by the tabloid press not understanding the inplications of research studies and you get headlines like: "Your antacids cause heart attacks!" The paper actually showed a correlation of data between the number of people with myocardial infarction and users of acid suppressants - which isn't actually surprising since the symptoms can be so similar. (My father died of a heart attack when I was a boy. He'd had acid reflux all his life and thought it wa indigestion again.) Correlation does not equal causation.

Other research has shown there may well be a chemo-protective effect from continuing PPIs which is why those of use with Barrett's are recommended to remain on them. (Of course it's impossible to prove such an effect and again figures may be just correlation rather than causation.)

But not everyone wishes to remain on PPIs all their lives and, although they may be good at reducing acid, they may do little to stop reflux. (For me, reflux was the worse problem so I opted for a fundoplication operation instead which fixed my hiatus hernia and incidentally meant I no longer needed to take the PPIs which had made me severely anaemic.)

-------------
http://www.barrettswessex.org.uk - www.barrettswessex.org.uk


Posted By: Pyrrhonist
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2015 at 9:07am
If you click on any poster's name at the top left of their
posting, you get to their information page.

Many here remain anonymous - I do not - a link to my www site is
there.

The book is at
http://www.Torrens.org.uk/Books/DD/index.html
It's not specifically relevant to reflux - but my father did go
in detail to blood chemistry so it refers to body
acidity/alkalinity and the effects.


-------------
Richard Torrens. - See my www site for my own experiences with Barrett's and reflux etc.


Posted By: Pyrrhonist
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2015 at 9:19am
> PPIs are amongst the safest of drugs used by millions around the
> world for 25 years. But they must be used correctly and monitored
> by a doctor. The advice is the lowest effective dose for the
> shortest requisite time.

I agree with Chris on this. But a word of warning.

PPIs affect the biliary system. The paper
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00464-005-0247-x
found that PPIs reduced gall bladder motility. Thus they would be
expected to suppress bile. However when experimenting with dosage,
I found that the first effect of a dose wearing off is that I
would taste bile in the refluxate. So inadequate dosing increases
bile reflux.

This of course explains why there is so much confusion amongst
professionals - some papers find PPIs reduce bile, some that it
increases bule. It can do both!

The other more serious affect I found was that on stopping PPIS
completely I suffered severe nocturnal bile reflux events,
intermittently, Some 5 or 6 serious events, the last some 90 days
after stopping PPIs.

This actually happened twice; once when I went down to 5mG doses
and once again when I finally stopped taking PPIs.

-------------
Richard Torrens. - See my www site for my own experiences with Barrett's and reflux etc.


Posted By: teacher man
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2015 at 8:26pm
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and throw my two cents out there.
From my experience I believe out gut has a tremendous effect on how well the ppis will work and to a degree how severe the side effects are.
Bile comes up a lot. Py you said ppis can cause or relieve bile. I think that might be true. And it's how well are gut is functioning as to what happens next.
I know it's important for a newbie to get on ppis right away. But if they self admit that their diet has little to no daily fiber, tons of sugar, fat and white flower mixed with an over abundance of cow milk/ dairy then it is wise to correct these things before trying the ppi. At least give the gut a chance to normalize.
If not, what " might" occur is what happened with me. In the beginning, the ppis made my whole reflux worse. Caused throat issues and I believe made the bile worse.
It wasn't til I inadvertently started to heal my gut that the side effects from the ppis passed. That and reducing them......
There was a paper published on cancer drugs and why they work for some but not others......their study tried to point the finger at a bad gut vs good gut. In the lab it proved to be true. Now they are seriously looking at this in human trials.   
Fixing the gut should be the first priority.
How? Cut out all sugar. Bad gut feeds on sugar. Simple.   Not.
But must be done.   No more than 35 grams at most of "added" sugar.
2) up the fiber big time. If you can tolerate it. Start slowly. Make sure to use soluable and unsoluable fibers. (Prebiotin) is my favorite soluable fiber. Lots of good reading and data on their site. There was a study where they showed adding 10 grams of fiber per day decreased OC by 31 percent.
3) find a probiotic with bifidus bacteria. Try different ones if it isn't working. Buy Only from from the cold section at a store. Or make your own. But if you have bad gut you will need more strength. Ultimate Flora critical care 50 billion sold in the refrigerated section of the store. No fridge no probiotic.
Next, mushrooms and onions, leafy greens, berries, turmeric root ect....start eating the Andrew Weil diet book. Basically a Mediterranean diet.    Great book and strategy.
It took me years to get the gut in order. But i didn't give up sugar til recently. That's where I've seen most bennifit when added to the other strategies I mentioned. There was a time when plain old water burned my esaphagus. That was when my gut was horrible and I was on ppis for the first time. Water didn't burn before I was on ppis but I had horrible heartburn.
I'm still learning and this is only "my" theory.   But I wish I had this knowledge when I started.   
Interstingly, my gut really turned the corner with the sugar gone. Before I was doing the rest and happy with the results but it was the addition of eliminating most added sugar that really did the trick. Not to jinx myself but my wife, kids, and co workers have had awful colds and flu. For months!   I haven't had anything close to a cold this year. And I am surrounded by runny noses and coughs.   I believe it is my gut. It's improved my Imune system. Ps. I also like bone broth. Drink it like tea. First thing you will notice is your hair and skin will look better. It is said to "resurrect the dead". start slowly.
Just my two cents on the whole bile subject.   It simply comes down to how well the gut is functioning. .happy days all



Posted By: NickH
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2015 at 1:36pm
thank you teacherman, all very interesting stuff. i will look into the fibre thing and getting rid of the sugar. my diet has certainly improved since being diagnosed, purely because it makes you think about your diet. i suspect most of us amble along in ignorant bliss as to what we're putting into our bodies until we get a wake up call.

i've found trying to stick to a more alkaline diet has already helped me get more informed about what is in foods we eat regularly...i've not looked into sugars but i'm sure it's in most things, all probably very tasty too!

never heard of bone broth before, will look into that one.

thanks again for the helpful feedback, is good to know there are others out there trying to find ways of best dealing with this issue.



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